Jeffro, those verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and the reasoning (about the Son of man coming in the clouds after the great tribulation) you used upon them (or that which you implied) are the the same things I noticed about 23 years ago (or perhaps even earlier, in the year 1995) while I was a JW who had started doing independent study of the Bible. As a result and because I cared with what the Bible actually says where it disagrees with the WT doctrines, those observations were some of the main things which made stop accepting the WT as being authoritative on theology, and led to me becoming an independent minded Christian (several years before I later became an atheist after I found too many problems with the Bible).
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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Disillusioned JW
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Desperation - 3 year old Becomes UnBaptized Publisher
by Sea Breeze injw's seem to be getting desperate.
this three year old is paraded on a jw blog in cuenca, ecuador.
it is about 1/3 of the way down on the page.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeeze, when JW parents go out in field service they typically take their children (if they are old enough to walk) with them and they often ask the children to offer a tract or magazine to the householders. Such was the case with me going out in field service with my mother. It thus likely isn't many years before many of the children become unbaptized publishers reporting field service time.
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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Disillusioned JW
World War I (originally called the Great War) did bring an end to many kingdoms (that is, governments headed by a human king), with them being replaced by democratic republics and socialist republics. The WT could (as did at least one Bible Student group, such as Layman's Home Missionary Movement) say that 1914 was the beginning of end of human monarchies (rule by a human king or queen) and that thus Russell was partly right about 1914. They could thus still claim 1914 as a marker for the beginning of the time of end, and at the same time they could stop saying that Christ began his kingdom over the Earth in 1914. [I am not saying the time of the end began then, only that they could still get away with teaching it began then.] They could thus scale back the alleged significance of 1914. Many Bible churches (including fundamentalist ones) in the USA teach that the world is in the last days even though they don't give a date as to when the last days began. The 1914 date is thus not really needed by the WT.
Furthermore, they can still claim that Jesus began favoring them in a special way starting in 1919. [I am not saying that the 1919 teaching is true, only that they could still get away with saying that Christ began favoring them in a special way in 1919 (such as helping them to: win court cases, abandon certain false doctrines, abandon certain practices, intensify their preaching work) - even if they cease to say Christ became king over Earth in 1914.]
If human society ever gets to the point where there are no more human monarchies then the WT could somewhat convincingly claim that Jesus Christ is the only king over the Earth. [I am not saying Christ is king, only that the WT could then make the claim that Jesus is the only king over the Earth.]
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Bible MIRACLEs!! Are they a Myth or Emeth?
by Fisherman inthe bible records miracles such as resurrections, angels, prophecy and destructive acts of god to mention a few.
are these all a pack of lies?
how do you explain them?
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Disillusioned JW
The wisdom found in some books of the Bible is simply the observations of humans noticing the outcomes of some human actions, while falsely claiming (even if doing so sincerely) that God revealed the wisdom. Consider the following observations.
If a man has sexual intercourse with a whore that can give the man an STD (sexually transmitted disease). Having sex with the wife of another man can lead to the husband of the adulterous woman taking vengeance upon the adulterous man, as well as upon the adulterous woman. Being a thief or a murderer can result in people coming after criminal to take vengeance upon the criminal, and if the criminal knows such then that can result in the criminal having great fear. If a person frequently lies eventually people will know that person is a liar and the liar will loose the trust of others and will have a hard time maintaining friendships. If a person frequently lies to his employer and cheats on the work he does, then the dishonest worker will have a hard time maintaining employment.
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170
Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks TD for your post which mentioned the Lunokhod rovers. Prior to reading it I didn't know (or had forgotten) that the Soviet Union had successfully made multiple unmanned moon landings. I now notice that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1 says the following.
"Lunokhod 1 (Russian: Луноход-1 ("Moonwalker 1"), also known as Аппарат 8ЕЛ № 203 ("Device 8EL No. 203")) was the first of two robotic lunar rovers landed on the Moon by the Soviet Union as part of its Lunokhod program. The Luna 17 spacecraft carried Lunokhod 1 to the Moon in 1970. Lunokhod 1 was the first remote-controlled robot "rover" to freely move across the surface of an astronomical object beyond the Earth. It was also the first wheeled craft on another celestial body.
... Although only designed for a lifetime of three lunar days (approximately three Earth months), Lunokhod 1 operated on the lunar surface for eleven lunar days (321 Earth days) and traversed a total distance of 10.54 km.
... Lunokhod 1 was equipped with a cone-shaped antenna, a highly directional helical antenna, four television cameras, and special extendable devices to test the lunar soil for soil density and mechanical properties. An X-ray spectrometer, an X-ray telescope, cosmic ray detectors, and a laser device were also included."
https://www.space.com/35090-lunokhod-1.html ("Lunokhod 1: 1st Successful Lunar Rover") says the following.
"Lunokhod 1 was the first successful rover to explore another world. It arrived on the moon on Nov. 17, 1970, upon the Luna 17 lander. Driven by remote-control operators in the Soviet Union, it travelled more than 10 kilometers (6 miles) in just 10 months. By comparison, it took the Mars Opportunity rover about six years to reach the same milestone.
... The Soviet Union had pinned its hopes of a manned moon landing on the Zond rocket. However, following a series of test failures, including a deadly launch pad explosion in 1968, the Soviet Union focused on other moon programs instead. Among them was robotically landing a probe on the moon, and operating a rover remotely.
Soviet successes at the moon included Luna 3 (which took the first pictures of its far side in 1959), Luna 9 (which made the first soft landing on the moon in 1966, three years before Apollo 11's human landing) and Luna 16 (which returned samples from the moon in 1970). The next in the series, Luna 17, carried a rover for remote operations.
... The success of Lunokhod 1 was repeated with Lunokhod 2 in 1973, which eventually drove approximately 37 kilometers (22.9 miles) on the lunar surface. It would take the Opportunity rover more than a decade to reach that same milestone on Mars.
The Lunokhod 1 landing site has been imaged by NASA's high-resolution lunar spacecraft, called the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. For example, pictures from 2012 clearly show the lander, the rover and its lunar tracks. [Related: Lost Soviet Reflecting Device Rediscovered on the Moon]
The rover's retroreflector registered an especially striking "bounce" in 2010 when scientists tried to send a laser signal to it, showing that it hadn't degraded from lunar dust or the elements. Lasers have been used to measure the exact distance from the Earth to the moon, principally using lasers from the Apollo missions.
After Lunokhod 2, no other mission soft-landed on the surface until the Chinese space program sent Chang'e 3 and its rover, Yutu. The pair landed in December 2013."
The accomplishments of the Soviet lunar rovers are fascinating and extremely impressive. I wish i had known of them much earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_crewed_lunar_programs says the Soviets flew live animals in a spacecraft around the moon. The article says the following. "In September 1968 Zond 5 carried the first Earth lifeforms, including two tortoises, to travel around the Moon and return safely."
Indoubtbigtime, the Soviet Union soft landed a probe on Mars in 1971.They also had sent orbiters in orbit abound Mars in the very early 1970s. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_3 which says the following.
'Mars 3 was a robotic space probe of the Soviet Mars program, launched May 28, 1971, nine days after its twin spacecraft Mars 2. The probes were identical robotic spacecraft launched by Proton-K rockets with a Blok D upper stage, each consisting of an orbiter and an attached lander. After the Mars 2 lander crashed on the Martian surface, the Mars 3 lander became the first spacecraft to attain a soft landing on Mars, on December 2, 1971. It failed 110 seconds after landing, having transmitted only a gray image with no details.[4] The Mars 2 orbiter and Mars 3 orbiter continued to circle Mars and transmit images back to Earth for another eight months.
... The primary purpose of the 4M-V orbiter was to study the topography of the Martian surface; analyze its soil composition; measure various properties of the atmosphere; monitor "solar radiation, the solar wind and the interplanetary and martian magnetic fields".[5] In addition, it served as a "communications relay to send signals from the lander to Earth".'
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New blood card system in March
by Indoubtbigtime inthere is going to be a hole new system of blood cards this march .
the congregation won’t hold any information as they did before from march it will be all put on the pub.
i think it’s to do with vaccines and they are worried now they got everyone vaxed and they want to distance themselves from medical responsibilities and say own personal decisions.
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Disillusioned JW
Indoubtbigtime, are you going to refuse participating in the new blood card system? Since unofficially I am no longer a JW and since I no longer believe in the WT's position on blood transfusions I no longer carry any WT/JW blood card.
Are located in the UK?
Regarding the comment of "and all the letters saying every special full time servants have to be fully vaccinated and anyone wanted to attend any schools run by the Borg need to be fully vaccinated", then some JWs should use that as an excuse to decline becoming special full time servants of the religion and to decline attending the religion's schools.
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170
Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
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Disillusioned JW
Death is not an illusion; it is real. Humans definitely do not have an immortal soul or an immortal conscious spirit, and neither does any other species of mammal - not even bonobos.
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170
Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
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Disillusioned JW
Corrections: In my prior post where I said "... (more than required to graduate from college)" I meant to say "... (more than required to graduate from high school)". In the same post where I said "As results spaceships can reach ..." I meant to say "As a result spaceships can reach ...".
I had some typos in the following. "After you read this entire post of mine (and after reading the posts by TD on the same topic) If you persist to claim the landing of humans upon the moon is a fraud and that rovers never landed on Mars, then I will conclude that you are either joking (or metaphorically trying to "push my buttons" and rile up people) or that you are currently incapable in drawing the correct conclusion on this topic and of thinking reasonably about it. If I conclude such about you on this topic, then I will likely no longer discuss this topic with since it would be a big waste of my time." I instead meant to say the following.
"After you read this entire post of mine (and after reading the posts by TD on the same topic), if you persist to claim the landing of humans upon the moon is a fraud and that rovers never landed on Mars, then I will conclude that you are either joking, or metaphorically trying to "push people's buttons" (namely to rile up people), or that you are currently incapable of drawing the correct conclusion on this topic and of thinking reasonably about it. If I conclude such about you on this topic, then I will likely no longer discuss this topic with you since it would be a big waste of my time. Are you a Flat Earther?"
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Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
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Disillusioned JW
Indoubtbigtime, by final steps I mean the last steps he made on the lander (made on the lower part of the ladder [or staircases]). Please note that my earlier post specifically said "... Armstrong taking the final steps off the lander ...". I guess that by "off the lander" you thought I meant "while not on the lander, but rather walking on the lunar soil". But I meant "stepping down the lander [stepping down its ladder/staircase] and stepping off from the lander onto the ground". Perhaps in the video footage he only made one step on the lander (the image is very blurry and thus hard to see), namely the one in which he stepped off the lander onto the moon. Regarding the camera angle it might have been from within the lander and pointing to a window from a good vantage points of the ladder {or staircase]. There might also have been a camera on the outside of the lander. TD's two most recent posts (prior to this post of mine) refer to a camera which "... lowered from descent stage of the module after landing ...."
In more than one of your posts you emphasize how far away the moon and Mars are from Earth, and you say that as a result humans could not have gone to the moon in 1969 through the early 1970s and that no rovers made it to Mars.
Perhaps you think that in order for a spaceship (and its rocket) to reach a destination very far away its rocket must be on continuously throughout the journey. But that is not the case. For proof please consider the following.
Most likely while you were in high school you were required to take one or more courses in physics. In high school physics classes one of the main things taught are Newton's Laws of Motion. As a reminder of Newton's first law of motion note that https://www.britannica.com/science/Newtons-laws-of-motion says the following. "Newton’s first law states that if a body is at rest or moving at a constant speed in a straight line, it will remain at rest or keep moving in a straight line at constant speed unless it is acted upon by a force. In fact, in classical Newtonian mechanics, there is no important distinction between rest and uniform motion in a straight line; they may be regarded as the same state of motion seen by different observers, one moving at the same velocity as the particle and the other moving at constant velocity with respect to the particle. This postulate is known as the law of inertia."
It is also important to know about escape velocity. To learn move about escape velocity (another concept taught in required high school physics classes) please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity . It says the following.
'In celestial mechanics, escape velocity or escape speed is the minimum speed needed for a free, non-propelled object to escape from the gravitational influence of a primary body, thus reaching an infinite distance from it. It is typically stated as an ideal speed, ignoring atmospheric friction. ... the escape speed increases with the mass of the primary body and decreases with the distance from the primary body. The escape speed thus depends on how far the object has already traveled, and its calculation at a given distance takes into account that without new acceleration it will slow down as it travels—due to the massive body's gravity—but it will never quite slow to a stop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion says that Newton's first law of motion can be paraphrased as follows. "A body remains at rest, or in motion at a constant speed in a straight line, unless acted upon by a force."
The vast majority of outer space is a vacuum between the stars, planets, moons, asteroids, comets, and rocks, such as in our solar system. [In our solar system the dust concentration between the previous mentioned objects is extremely low.] As a result if spacecrafts, sent from Earth, after leaving Earth's atmosphere manage to avoid hitting those objects they will encounter almost no resistance to slow them down. Almost no friction will be acting upon them to slow it down. The gravity from the Earth can slow it down but it they left the planet at a velocity higher than the escape velocity that won't cause their velocity to drop all the way to zero. As results spaceships can reach the moon, Mars, Jupiter, and even the edge of our solar system.
In high school, physics was one of my most favorite subjects to study. For three years in high school I took half a year of it (more than required to graduate from college). In college I took a one year course of "Physics with Calculus" which was designed for those intending to become engineers. Do you remember much from your study of high school physics?
In 1977 NASA launched two space probes into space. The probes are called Voayager 1 and Voyager 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_program says the following about them.
'As of 2022, the Voyagers are still in operation past the outer boundary of the heliosphere in interstellar space. They collect and transmit useful data to Earth.
... As of 2022, Voyager 1 was moving with a velocity of 61,185 kilometers per hour (38,019 mph), or 17 km/s, relative to the Sun, and was 23,252,000,000 kilometers (1.4448×1010 mi) from the Sun[2] reaching a distance of 155.8 AU (23.3 billion km; 14.5 billion mi) from Earth as of February 10, 2022.[3] On 25 August 2012, data from Voyager 1 indicated that it had entered interstellar space.[4]
As of 2022, Voyager 2 was moving with a velocity of 55,335 kilometers per hour (34,384 mph), or 15 km/s, relative to the Sun, and was 19,350,000,000 kilometers (1.202×1010 mi) from the Sun[5] reaching a distance of 130.1 AU (19.5 billion km; 12.1 billion mi) from Earth as of February 10, 2022.[3] On 5 November 2019, data from Voyager 2 indicated that it also had entered interstellar space.[6] On 4 November 2019, scientists reported that, on 5 November 2018, the Voyager 2 probe had officially reached the interstellar medium (ISM), a region of outer space beyond the influence of the solar wind, as did Voyager 1 in 2012.[7][8] '
In a prior post you said the following to me. "Disalusioned please just think about the distance between Earth and Mars and take a moment to think are those pictures really from Mars or is it all an elaborate lie and they are actually from here on Earth?" My response is as follows. I thought about the distance and in the paragraphs I mentions to you my thoughts about. I am certain that all of the photos which NASA says are from Mars really are from Mars. I have never ever doubted those photos. I am 100% certain what NASA has done is not "an elaborate LIE". I am also 100% certain that the photos (the ones NASA claims were taken from the surface of Mars) were not taken "here on Earth". After you read this entire post of mine (and after reading the posts by TD on the same topic) If you persist to claim the landing of humans upon the moon is a fraud and that rovers never landed on Mars, then I will conclude that you are either joking (or metaphorically trying to "push my buttons" and rile up people) or that you are currently incapable in drawing the correct conclusion on this topic and of thinking reasonably about it. If I conclude such about you on this topic, then I will likely no longer discuss this topic with since it would be a big waste of my time.
In a post you asked for NASA had sent people to the moon (in 1969 through the early 1970s) then why haven't they yet returned to the moon. The answer is the following. When astronauts went to the moon they did not find any life there or even any water there. They didn't find much there to warrant continuing to go to the moon. NASA knew that in order to have a viable base on the moon the astronauts would need to be able to obtain water from the moon. They would also need to be able to grow food on the moon. Based on what they didn't find in 1969 through the 1970s and even into part of the 2000-2010 they concluded there was no point on returning to the moon. During Obama's presidency the president directed their goal to getting humans on Mars and to not bother with sending people back to the moon. Even Buzz Aldrin's book (the book I mentioned in an earlier post) from 2013 said that NASA should not return to the moon (but the book does say that Aldrin stepped onto the moon) and instead focus on going to Mars.
But eventually with orbiting observatories NASA discovered there is water on the moon, enough to sustain a viable base on the moon and to produce rocket fuel for astronauts to journey out beyond the moon. NASA discovered that the south pole of the moon has much frozen water in craters. They also discovered that the soil at the south pole has substances which can be used to makes solar electric power panels on the moon. With such solar panels a moon base can sustainably produce power operations and split water in hydrogen and oxygen to make rocket fuel. The oxygen produced from the splitting of the water can be used for the astronauts to breathe. Recently a science lab managed to grow plants (on Earth) in a sample of the soil (in the experiment seeds were planted into the soil) which was returned from the moon decades ago. As a result, NASA now knows that astronauts can grow food at the south pole of the moon. NASA also discovered that water cover much of the sunlit surface of the moon, and that the moon thus far more water than what they previously thought - enough which can be distilled for drinking! The space agencies of China and of India have also discovered water on the moon! Some of the lunar water was made by hydrogen ions (sent from the Sun as solar wind) slamming into the moon's surface and reacting chemically with the lunar soil. There are many news sources for this. Some of them are the following.
- https://www.sciencealert.com/water-from-the-sun-has-been-found-on-the-moon [It says in part the following. "The Moon looks like a pretty dry dustball, but recent studies have found that there's a lot more water up there than anyone ever suspected. Obviously it's not floating around in lakes and lagoons; it's bound up in the lunar regolith, possibly lurking as ice in permanently shadowed craters, and sequestered in globules of volcanic glass."]
- https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/ice-confirmed-at-the-moon-s-poles/
- http://www.nasa.gov/feature/biological-physical/scientists-grow-plants-in-soil-from-the-moon
In light of various discoveries, Trump during his presidency directed NASA to return to the moon, to create a base on the moon, and to have NASA use future experience on the future moon base to learn to how to enable future astronauts survive a trip to Mars, to survive on Mars, and to survive a trip from Mars back to Earth.
One day ago NASA announced that they will test a nuclear thermal rocket which could enable astronauts in a future mission to travel from Earth to Mars in only 45 days, instead of months! Take would make the trip much safer since it would reduce the exposure radiation and reduce the amount of food and water needed for the trip! See https://www.livescience.com/nasa-nuclear-powered-rocket . It says in part the following.
'NASA’s current rocket systems (including the Space Launch System which last year sent the Artemis 1 rocket on a historic round-trip to the moon) are based on the century-old, traditional method of chemical propulsion — in which an oxidizer (which gives the reaction more oxygen to combust with) is mixed with flammable rocket fuel to create a flaming jet of thrust. The proposed nuclear system, on the other hand, will harness the chain reaction from tearing apart atoms to power a nuclear fission reactor that would be “three or more times more efficient” and could reduce Mars flight times to a fraction of the current seven months, according to the agency.'
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170
Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
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Disillusioned JW
The video at cbs news coverage of 1969 moon mission - Google Search [https://www.google.com/search?q=cbs+news+coverage+of+1969+moon+mission&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq0uu92Ob8AhUCBzQIHZPwCbEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1233&bih=913&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:aa525629,vid:eoy8IWjwb1k ] has video footage from CBS. In it there are sections which contain animations and simulations - and in multiple places the video has the word "ANIMATION" or "SIMULATION", thus the broadcast was not being deceptive abut such. Even without the words "ANIMATION" and "SIMULATION" one can often tell it is an animation or simulation, such as when the simulated lander is shown from outside the simulated lander (and from a distance) to be landing on the moon. In at least one place (after Armstrong said "The Eagle has landed") in the video even shows the text of "CBS NEWS SIMULATION" (at about the 6:42 time mark). That indicates that CBS was being honest in the use of the animations and simulations.